Is the Lakeland Revival Stage 4?

Before launching into today's topic, let me mention a few links.  Bob Estes is a physicist and former atheist, now a person of faith.  He's a super-thoughtful blogger on the subject who, along with this post--which explains his journey into and out of atheism--presents an engaging exchange of posts with bloggers on the "friendly atheist" site.  Fun reading, if that's your interest.

Also I had probably my most enjoyable radio interview yet with Debbie Chavez, who has an internet show.  She's cheerful and chatty and seemed to have read the book enough that she could engage in some fun give and take.  Her archives, where you'll find my interview, also have conversations with folks like John Eldredge. 

I should probably keep a permanent posting here on these stages of faith that M. Scott Peck proposed in Further Along the Road Less Traveled and that I talk about in my book.  I suspect they'll be a recurring theme here.  In brief, the theory is that in an ideal world we'd all progress concurrently through certain emotional and spiritual stages.  But most of us get stuck along the way.  Stage 1 he defines as criminal and would correspond to being a toddler.  Folks here end up in jail or in power.  Stage 2 he defines as rules-based, and would correspond to being perhaps 6 or 7 when you want to please mom and dad.  Peck argues most churches fit here, helpfully explaining the rules of life, of being a good or bad person.  Stage 3 he defines as rebellious, which corresponds to being a teenager.  Here you question why the rules you've been taught are actually the rules of life.  University cultures might typify stage 3, along with secular culture.  Stage 4 he calls mystical.  Here you recognize that what you were taught in Stage 2 might well be true, but in a much different, less-certain, more open-ended way that throws you back on a living, guiding God.

The posts at notreligious have bandied about whether the Lakeland Revival fits into Stage 4.  On the one hand, if it' s not mystical, what is?  Clearly we're dealing with a communicative, active God here.  On the other hand, by and large the preaching fits into conventional, conservative Pentecostal culture, which would seem a neat fit into Stage 2.  On the other other hand, many Stage 2 Christian leaders have criticized Todd Bentley and others there for what some might regard as their out-of-the-box thinking.

Perhaps we shouldn't care.  People are getting healed and encouraged to find more fervor in God, so what's the possible beef with that, whatever alleged "stage" the meetings might fit?  And fair enough.

I have more-detailed conjectures on how Todd Bentley might fit into this paradigm...but somehow writing them down seemed priggish and pointless.  Maybe the bigger point is that Stage 2 and Stage 4 can coexist nicely in settings where God's spirit is encouraged.  It seems to me we never want to do anything other than celebrate when the power and presence of God is evident.  And we also don't want to let what some might regard as defiantly Stage 2 trappings rob us of this experience of God.  If both stages are at work, it seems in our interest to find what's Stage 4 and receive it and celebrate it.

A final note from Marlster, commenting at notreligious.org:

Interesting to link Lakeland to Scott-Peck-stages. Seems like the criteria for stage 2 is outside (getting someone to follow beliefs) and stage 4 on inside (living values from the inside).  ...So where does Lakeland fall? Hard to say but I get the same comments from folks who watch it every night: we want more of that intensity in our life (good) but we need all of you other church folks to comply (social reinforcement needed) otherwise we get frustrated and keep going to conferences to get our fix. 

Comments

[Joan Ball]

I was interested to read Marlster's comment...

"Hard to say but I get the same comments from folks who watch it every night: we want more of that intensity in our life (good) but we need all of you other church folks to comply (social reinforcement needed) otherwise we get frustrated and keep going to conferences to get our fix."

I am a Spirit-led Christian who listens to and acts boldly in response to the leading of the Spirit and yet I find certain language in this comment to be disconcerting. Marlster, please know that I am posting this as a foundation for discussion, not as a criticism of you or your post.

Four specific components of the post gave me pause:

1)..."we want more of that intensity in our lives."

I believe that things could get very dangerous for me if I began to seek intensity rather than seeking God and leaving it to Him as to how intense (or not) my encounter with Him might be.

2)..."we need all the other church folks to comply."

While I am sure it was not the intention, this statement could be read or interpreted to be more command and control than Spirit-led.

3)..."social reinforcement needed."

I'm not sure I know what this means, but it sounds a little ominous.

4)..."otherwise we get frustrated and go to conferences to get our fix."

I worry that frustration as a motivation for seeking God may be a slippery slope and my discernment is piqued at the notion that I might ever seek a conference rather than spiritual disciplines such as prayer, fasting, reading the Word, meditating, solitude, silence, etc. as a way to come closer to God. Not sure I want to view my time with God as a "fix" anyway.

Would love to know what others think...

[Matt]

Ooooh, oooh! I would love it for Dave to share more of his conjectures on this matter, priggish or no.

One thought I had as I read this post, is that I feel like a blend of Stage 2 and Stage 4 may be really healthy and good (even perhaps, dare I use a Stage 2 word, "Biblical"?) and may actually be where I fall when it comes to following Jesus. With all of our pooh-poohing of those Stage 2 folks, it's kind of nice to know some of the basic rules of life. I've benefitted a ton from some of these basic rules (maybe a more palatable term for us is "principles" or "wisdom"), and from the growth that they've forced me into as I've dealt with the consequences of not knowing/not obeying them.

Sooo...in the end Peck's conception is a paradigm, not necessarily inspired and with its own limitations (like all paradigms, even good and helpful ones).

Thoughts?

[Dave]

Joan, thanks as always for your comment! I do think you were misreading Marlster's comment. He wasn't endorsing "needing other church folks to comply" or "going to conferences to get our fix," but was satirizing it. Unless, God forbid, I'M the one who's missed his point.

[Joan Ball]

Happy as could be to be wrong here...makes me feel better than the alternative.

Leads to a follow-up for me though, if you can pardon my naivete--who is it that we're satirizing?

[Brian O]

I've been chewing on Marlster's comment:
"...So where does Lakeland fall? Hard to say but I get the same comments from folks who watch it every night: we want more of that intensity in our life (good) but we need all of you other church folks to comply (social reinforcement needed) otherwise we get frustrated and keep going to conferences to get our fix."

I really think he is onto something. I'm also a little confused, though, because I think Stage 4 faith also includes a strong communal component--which will definitely have a (good) social reinforcement aspect. Thinking out loud, here is my picture of how social reinforcement works in Stage 2 and in Stage 4. (Disclaimer--they are only my pictures!)

Stage 2:
The community is closed, and the only new ideas that can be accepted are generated by people within the community. Everyone in the entire social network believes the same things, so it is easier to be confident that your beliefs and rules for life are correct. It is difficult to have peer-level friendships with people of different faiths.

Stage 4:
There is a strong community which share essential spiritual beliefs (e.g. we follow Jesus together). However, people in the community tend to have peer-level friendships with people of differing persuasions, and in these friendships new ideas come from both parties. Voices from outside the community sometimes or often provide new insight for the community. Social reinforcement from within the community still occurs, but it occurs in full recognition of the wider world.

In my pictures, I think the essential difference in social reinforcement has to do with humility with respect to outsiders. Do they have input which is worth paying attention to or seeking out? Are they worthy of real friendship? Are they sometimes right where we are wrong?

I think this question of social reinforcement is an interesting question ... and that I'm probably only seeing it from one of the several angles it's worth looking from ...

[Brian O]

From Dave's post:
"Maybe the bigger point is that Stage 2 and Stage 4 can coexist nicely
in settings where God's spirit is encouraged. ... we also don't want
to let what some might regard as defiantly Stage 2 trappings rob us of
this experience of God. If both stages are at work, it seems in our
interest to find what's Stage 4 and receive it and celebrate it."

This kind of approach seems like a good one. Sometimes this has
worked for me, but sometimes it hasn't. I think it has to do with
whether I'm operating in Stage 3 or Stage 4.

It took me a long time to figure out how I could leave some Christian
meetings where thousands of people got fired up about Jesus--but I
would tend to leave believing less than when I went in. Peck's stages of faith
gives a good framework. Those were Stage 2 meetings, and I in Stage 3
was trying to grow and maybe rebelling some too.

Nowadays, I'd say that I'm at a mix of Stage 3 and Stage 4. When I'm
in more of a Stage 4 mode of being, it's much easier for me to follow
Dave's advice. I can get the good stuff that God has from me from
most any church meeting. Since I've still got a Stage 3 component,
though, that's sometimes a very challenging proposition, and I sometimes feel like my life with God would be better served by sleeping in on Sunday.

Consistent with what Dave suggests about how God's Spirit helps Stage
2 and 4 to coexist--I've found it much much easier to benefit from
Stage 2ish meetings when the Holy Spirit is really active there. God's felt presence seems to mitigate any offense to the Stage 3 me.