Are You an Idealist?

I've just come back from a week's writing retreat at a friend's (and reader and occasional commenter on this blog) apartment in New York.  I've been trying to finish this book promised for attendees at the Culture Center Summit--a "how to create a centered-set/ Stage 4 community" manual.  To give you a sense of the magnitude of the challenge, I've written more text in the last week than made up the entire length of Not the Religious Type.  We're talking a lot of words.  And I had a good time catching up on the blog when I went to the nearest Starbucks for internet service. (Did you know that there are several Starbucks in Manhattan?  Who knew?) 

One section I found myself going into in a bit more depth than I expected was what I anticipated being a brief word to the wise on idealism.  I'd remembered a striking quote from Bonhoeffer on the subject that has only seemed more profound as the years pass.  As I revisited the quote, I was floored by how much I understood and resonated with a good deal of his comments, comments that hit me hard when I first read them even as I couldn't believe he was serious.  Idealism a bad thing?

One might regard our endeavor here as idealistic.  And one might, understandably, regard it as a pointed critique of churches.  So I'll be really interested in your response to Bonhoeffer's thoughts. If you end up sold that idealism is a problem, how do you recommend keeping big dreams alive without that devolving into toxic idealism?  I'll start with my preface on the matter, and then it's all Bonhoeffer.

It’s tempting to see idealism as right at the heart of starting any community of faith, much less one in these culture centers we’re describing.  And there’s something to that, but it hits its limits very quickly.  Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in Life Together, wrote the shocking line, “God hates visionary dreaming.”  I read that just as I was helping start an ambitious ministry to kids in the city with the highest murder rate in the country.  Our team was living in community.  We were all about visionary dreaming.  Otherwise why would we be there?

And yet Bonhoeffer’s line stuck with me, a line written as he was running his own ambitious community—an underground seminary trying to train pastors who wouldn’t bow to Hitler.  His point was that idealism wars with reality, which is warring with God.  Yes, we start with dreams and pursue them, but then we live in the actual as we see what God is actually up to.

Our early team had its share of idealism which, if held lightly, was charming and helpful, but it held tightly, was unpleasant and hopeless.  A church plant I know was—like all church plants, but much more so—rabidly idealistic on all sides as it got started and, like all idealists, it ended quickly and acrimoniously.  Reality—much less people—rarely lives up to ideals.

Here’s a longer cut of Bonhoeffer’s thoughts on this, which strike me as a gift to all church people, not to mention to all who hope to see, say, a centered-set revival in the secular west.

“Innumerable times a whole Christian community has broken down because it had sprung from a wish dream.  The serious Christian, sat down for the first time in a Christian community, is likely to bring with him a very definite idea of what Christian life together should be and to try to realize it.  But God’s grace speedily shatters such dreams.  Just as surely as God desires to lead us to a knowledge of genuine Christian fellowship, so surely must we be overwhelmed by a great disillusionment with others, with Christians in general, and, if we are fortunate, with ourselves. 

“…The sooner this shock of disillusionment comes to an individual and to a community, the better for both.  …He who loves his dream of community more than the Christian community itself becomes a destroyer of the latter…

“God hates visionary dreaming; it makes the dreamer proud and pretentious.  …(The dreamer) enters the community of Christians with his demands, sets up his own law, and judges the brethren and God Himself accordingly.  …When things do not go his way, he calls the effort a failure. 

“…If we do not give thanks daily for the Christian fellowship in which we have been placed, even where there is no great experience, no discoverable riches, but much weakness, small faith and difficulty; if on the contrary, we only keep complaining to God that everything is so paltry and petty, so far from what we expected, then we hinder God from letting our fellowship grow according to the measure and riches which are there for us all in Jesus Christ.

“…A pastor should not complain about his congregation, certainly never to other people, but also not to God.  A congregation has not been entrusted to him so that he should become its accuser before God and men.

“…Only God knows the real state of our fellowship, of our sanctification.  What may appear to be weak and trifling to us may be great and glorious to God.  Just as the Christian should not be constantly feeling his spiritual pulse, so, too, the Christian community has not been given to us by God for us to be constantly taking its temperature.  The more thankfully we receive what is given to us, the more surely and steadily will fellowship increase and grow from day to day as God pleases.”

Is he right?  If so, what are the implications of that?

Comments

[brian]

Wow. In reading Bonhoeffer's thoughts, I get that weird feeling one often gets when one is stung by a thought, and yet feels deep down (inexplicably, perhaps) that the thought is correct, and that one should examine their life accordingly!

Obviously--it hardly needs to be said, yet I'll say it anyway--that a philosophy of "accepting reality" can be a simpleton's excuse for apathy, or, perhaps more perniciously, it can be a way to make the submission to what is powerful or the capitulation to vulgar success look principled. But I don't think anyone could accuse Bonhoeffer of this (!!!), so there has to be something deeper in what he's saying.

I heard someone (Dave, a sermon?) say that "reality is the friend of God." Where is this from? A google search turns up nothing. I kind of like that little proverb now, and I've been saying it to people, and myself, in various situations for the past year or so. But what does it mean, exactly? I'm not totally certain.

Anyway: I would be curious to probe a bit deeper into what "idealism" is, exactly. And that is not a trifling question, I don't think, since one could either strongly agree or disagree with those exact same words of Dave's/Bonhoeffer's above depending on what one means by "idealism." Sorry, I just love to ask what words mean!

[Evan]

Dave, your interaction with Bonhoeffer seems terribly significant. His execution was tragic, but who knows if we'd see his work so compellingly otherwise.

As a fellow church planter, this concept resonates resoundingly with me! It gives a framework to the push and pull of the first months and years of a new work. It's widely noted by church planting leaders that the church planting team often functions as scaffolding, which falls away after the plant has been established. That can be accepted in theory, but it's tough when people you're giving your life for have core differences with how a work should begin and proceed. I'm glad you're wrestling with the concept. It seems relevant to the practical matters involved with a broad migration to centered-set faith.

One could argue that centered-set theory is an effort to dovetail with Bonhoeffer in setting ideologies and boundaries aside in order to focus on Jesus and love one another. One could also counter that argument by pointing out the great effort we are exerting to detail the ideology of this non-ideological theory. The former seems more true to me.

It's hard to separate Bonhoeffer from his circumstance in Nazi Germany. Is it possible that his categorical statement, "God hates visionary dreaming," is colored by the horrific abuse he witnessed through Hitler's charisma? Pastor Cho of South Korea (world's largest church) has written that "dreams are the language of the Holy Spirit." We could blog for hours with quotes of famous leaders calling for and praising visionary leadership.

Bonhoeffer's comments ring more true to me when I consider them in the context of old school, authoritarian leadership. I want to hear more of what everyone has to say, but my initial take is that it's healthy to find a midpoint on this continuum between amibition and fatalism.

[Evan]

...and would Bonhoeffer say that Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.'s "I Have a Dream" speech was a galvanizing moment for positive change or the exposition of a harmful ideal which would cripple the cause of minorities? I don't think I know anyone who would believe the latter. Relevant?

[kim]

For me, the word idealism is often associated with a sense of rigidity, inflexibility, naivete, and not being entirely grounded in reality. I like the idea of having vision (and believe God blesses us with this), and then holding this vision in our heart while God instructs us how to give birth to his plan. I'm continually humbled when I get too attached to some ideal picture and then try to work that plan. It typically ends up being unsustainable, hollow and fruitless. I'm also struck how God likes to keep us dependent on him by often revealing things one step at a time. It seems like by sticking close to God in the creative process, we will be more apt to rejoice in things and not complain. I agree with Bonhoeffer's statement, "God hates visionary dreaming" because it's basically us doing things separate from the vine.

[Hiromu]

Wow. I really resonate with the quotes from Bonhoeffer and they remind me that I should reread "Life Together."

I also hear Evan's point about needing to put Bonhoeffer in his historical context. That said, I can think of multiple other examples of idealism gone towards more iffy directions in non-authoritarian contexts. Liberation theology comes up to my mind as one example. And less politically, many "revivals" in our time seem to hit "reality" in one form or another (things just fizzling out; leadership involved in scandals, etc.). So my sense is that Bonhoeffer's point probably has a wider application.

Just to throw in another reference point, I've also been thinking about this tension between ideals and reality in the context of I Peter 2-3 and Ephesians 5-6 discussions about how "slaves," "wives," "children," etc. should deal with the authorities above them.

On the one hand, these passages have been understandably controvercial for their seeming acceptance of what many of us would consider to be unjust relationships. On the other hand, my current take on them is that they actually aren't really about justifying these inequalities but is more about giving tips to people who feel oppressed on how to best live, given their unjust circumstances.

Given their historical contexts (whether as Jews under Roman rule, wives in a very patriarchal society, or slaves in an empire built on slavery), realistically these people probably didn't have much means to counter their injustices except through outright (and probably futile) confrontation with their oppressors. But then Jesus and his followers come along and start saying things to the effect of "there is no slave or freemen, women or men, masters or slaves." It seems likely that this led to some tension within the church between those who were in the poisition of power (slave owners, husbands, fathers, etc) and those who were under them.

But Paul and Peter's message doesn't seem to be one of "throw off your shackles" and "fight your oppressors." They also doesn't seem to say: "Suck it up. That's the way things should be." Instead, they seem to suggest that something more life-giving could be going on even in these unjust relationships with God coming into the picture.

I could, of course, be wrong in all of this, but it seems to me that Paul and Peter's suggetions have some deep connectiosns to what Bonhoeffer's is addressing in those quotes Dave posted in terms of addressing this tension between our ideals, realities, and God's role in them.

Of course, Bonhoeffer himself puts a twist into all of this with his involvement in the plot against Hitler. But maybe we can separate this from his quotes which seem more directly to address life "within" the church.

Any thoughts?

[Otto]

This is a really good post. I really got that... that idealism is a bad thing. I get what Bonhoffer says about “God hates visionary dreaming" and the things about community.

I think I can be and idealist in many ways, by disposition. However, I don't want to be an idealist, I strive to be a realist. What I'm wrestling with is that I have concerns that may seem idealisitic, and I don't know what the best thing to do with them. My concern is that churches are quite out of touch with realities accepted in secular culture. Out of touch with what it means to be human. Out of touch with the reality of the planet we live on, which I feel is a gift from God. Now, if I say something about "the church" or "churches", I know that this generalizing, and I'm making big assumptions about what an individual community, much less an individual, believes in.

But I see the "out of touch with reality" problem as deeply systemic within the foundation of the church. My feeling is that this problem arises from religious people having their head too far in the scriptures and failing to see evidence that contradicts scripture (or at least their interpretation of scripture). Evolution is perhaps the best example... though I personally do believe that God is the intelligence who is behind evolution, but that's different from the viewpoint that creationists push.

So that said, as far as far as the pursuit that seems to be at hand here, which is creating a stage 4 communities of faith, what is the best thing to do regarding the things that make me uncomfortable about religion? Perhaps the best thing is to do nothing, to accept the church as it is, with it's flaws, etc.

So to answer Dave's question "how do you recommend keeping big dreams alive without that devolving into toxic idealism?" I think this requires discipline and also really listening to others who are in your community. I think the reason that "God hates visionaries" is that idealistic quests usually end up turning into a war between egos. I would say that "God hates egos, especially egos at war with each other". We should respect and really consider other peoples' opinions. Open your mind to stage 3 methods such as asking, questioning, bracketing... always with love, respect, and discipline. Regarding this, I would say that any community that aspires for stage 4 faith also has to master stage 3 questioning (maybe this is not true, who knows).

[Otto]

Evan, I wrote this in my post below, but just wanted to reply to your post with this idea...

I think the reason that "God hates visionaries" is that idealistic/visionary quests usually end up turning into a war between egos. So I would slightly modify Bonhoffer's quote to say "God hates egos- especially egos at war with each other".

Seems like differentiating factor of all "good" (visionary) leaders is humility. Would you agree?

[Otto]

That's a really good point about what the scripture says about slaves, wives, etc. I think that is exactly what it's saying.

[Evan]

Good thoughts Otto. I agree that humility goes a very long way with leadership. God give us more competent, humble leaders! Your amplification of Bonhoeffer seems good.

It also reminds me of Jim Collins' book, Good to Great. You might be aware of their "Level 5 Leaders" who statistically turned out to be overwhelmingly effective in business and, to a person, powerfully humble. Perhaps Level 5 leaders are very Stage 4.

[Evan]

Hey Dave, Dan and Brian (and any other notreligious staff),
I'm having a reflective moment and feeling very grateful for the opportunity to chat with this wonderfully gifted and caring group. I've learned a lot, continue to learn a lot, and I'm genuinely appreciative. I understand the scope is far beyond my thoughts and my corner of the world, but you've facilitated a process that has hit home and nudged change in me over and over. Thanks for that.

[DJ Sybear]

I stumbled around for a bit trying to figure out how I could possibly comment on this. What great, noble ideas and difficult implementation Bonhoeffer offers us. Is it really possible that Bonhoeffer is telling us—nay, me—that visionary dreaming is not permitted in the Kingdom of God?

So to put Bonhoeffer's Life Together in context, I grabbed a quote from The Cost of Discipleship. You might recognize it.

As we embark upon discipleship we surrender ourselves to Christ in union with his death—we give over our lives to death. Thus it begins; the cross is not the terrible end to an otherwise god-fearing and happy life, but it meets us at the beginning of our communion with Christ. When Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die. It may be a death like that of the first disciples who had to leave home and work to follow him, or it may be a death like Luther’s, who had to leave the monastery and go out into the world. But it is the same death every time—death in Jesus Christ, the death of the old man at his call.

I think what Bonhoeffer says here of the individual is essentially the same as what he says above of the individual in the matrix of community. At the outset we meet Christ in death/disillusionment, and our visionary dreams die at the oppositional surge of both God and reality.

A few examples might be in order. Luther had to die to his visionary dream, 98 theses long, that a better theology and practice would occur under the authority of the Catholic Church. Peter had to die to his visionary dream that the Jews should forcibly usurp ancient Rome to establish Israel. Matthew had to die to his plan of serving the Roman government as a tax-collector. Paul had to die to his visionary dream of a pure Jewish society, free of infection by heretics, in particular these "Christians" he kept executing. And Bonhoeffer indeed died prior to finishing what he referred to as his "life's work", his Ethics.

And it's not like this only happens on the way in. I've had to give up my plans for my future at least six times now in twelve years. I do it begrudgingly, most of the time; I tire of being reinvented. I would not be surprised if many of you have had similar experiences. Knowing God to be as good as he is, I trust he has a better plan on the other side.

What we dream for is irrelevant compared to God's vision. If I fancy some fashionable idea, there's a good chance I'll just be getting in the way of what God wants to do. Let God be the dreamer, and I'll try my best to just listen.

[Brent]

Hmmm...well, about idealism generally, it strikes me that Jesus was pretty idealistic. I happen to be one of those who thinks the sermon on the mount was not just a negative object lesson - Jesus really wants us to live that way. It also strikes me that Jesus did openly complain about his 'congregation' a few times, wondering how long he'd have to suffer us and complaining his friends couldn't stay awake with him while he prayed.

But I think what Bonhoeffer is getting at here is just that leaders cannot let their idealistic vision for ministry trump actual relationships and realities. I don't think that means abandoning idealistic vision. Rather, it means living in the tension between that vision and reality. The word for that tension is Hope.

Living in the Already means we get glimpses of what God's 'idealistic' Kingdom looks like, and grabbing that gives us Hope to see more. Living in the Not Yet means we deal with the reality of a fallen creation every day, and engaging that requires Hope to see us through.

[Reese]

A few people have commented on the theme of visions and dreams trumping actual relationships with the people around us. I find that when I'm at my most idealistic I forget about the people around me in my quest to create the perfection I'm longing for. In the end, is God calling me to my dreams or to my community? My dreams are about community, about a renewed, just, and whole community. But the actual people around me can frustrate me when they don't cooperate with my dream. Perhaps dreams are good as long as we have the patience to let them unfold?
Perhaps I'm getting at what Brent said about the tension between vision and reality.

[Ellen]

"The less I seek my source for some definitive, the closer I am to fine."

[steven hamilton]

i think my thoughts on this provocation from herr bonhoeffer line up more or less with you brent. i think there is that tension-filled middle way that is idealistic and yet firmly rooted in reality.

too often we fall off on one side or the other (like Dave says: off into toxic idealism or fatalistic realism)...and yet Hope remains...

[Vinceation]

Evan, I'm glad you pointed out Bonhoeffer's context. "Idealism" or "visionary dreaming" are probably very icky concepts with a backdrop of Nazi propaganda about an "Aryan race".
Perhaps this is a Chicago vs. Boston (or other places) thing, but "idealism" doesn't really carry a whole lot of negative connotation to me. A lot of times I just read it as an ideological extension of optimism, and in that case I don't really see it as toxic. Maybe just needing to be balanced from time-to-time. That said, I'm a proud, card-carrying optimist and I think that has benefited me more than it's hurt me (pun intended... heyo, I'll be here all week...)
At any rate, no doubt idealism, as represented by the negative connotation most everyone else seems to have with it, can really separate us from reality and others and God.

[Vinceation]

ooohhh, great stuff Hiromu! (that was a kid-in-a-candy-shop "ooohhh")

Your comment gives me a new angle from which to read Bonhoeffer's words. It sparks me to bring up a thought (maybe a tangent) I've been having: I wonder if there is a slightly-false narrative informing Christians (I might just mean American Christians, I'm not sure) regarding God's "sovereignty". Perhaps it is this slightly-false narrative that, when confronted with the sad or unjust, etc. of our world, we go into hyper-doubting-God mode because what we see doesn't match our understanding of a good God being sovereign.
If there's something to this, my take on our slightly-false narrative is that we read "sovereign" as "in control" and "in control" means (amongst other things) no trace of competition (i.e. evil, injustice, etc.).
From this angle, Bonhoeffer's words are sharply grounded in reality as he speaks of his God who is sovereign in the midst of competition from evil and injustice and reminds me not to live in imaginary-idealist-world where means sovereign means no competition. This tears down the slightly-false narrative that leads me to get frustrated when life doesn't work according to my limited understanding of God... which I have put on a pedestal and labeled "my vision".

[Evan]

From Oswald Chambers' My Utmost for His Highest devotional today:

"What is my vision of God’s purpose for me? Whatever it may be, His purpose is for me to depend on Him and on His power now. If I can stay calm, faithful, and unconfused while in the middle of the turmoil of life, the goal of the purpose of God is being accomplished in me. God is not working toward a particular finish— His purpose is the process itself. What He desires for me is that I see "Him walking on the sea" with no shore, no success, nor goal in sight, but simply having the absolute certainty that everything is all right because I see "Him walking on the sea" ( Mark 6:49 ). It is the process, not the outcome, that is glorifying to God."

Seems to add another good perspective...

[Ty Denney]

I feel as though I need to un-read every leadership book I have read. Or is it that the books/teachings are incomplete unless they highlight the key component of failure(perceived) and handling failed expectations of the people the leader is with? I think of scores of stories from scripture and experience. I cannot help but think that dreams/visions/idealism is part of corporate faith experience. But, most of them never come to fruition or even attempted. A huge part of my growing faith has to do with the launching out in idealism - attempting something. Over half the time I have failed. Good average for baseball, bad for "professional ministers." I have learned to revel in the attempts, and deal with the outcome as secondary impacts.

[Brent]

You know, I thought of this post this week as I followed the health care debate in Washington. As is often the case with such big issues, there are two sides to the debate which generally are completely refusing to work together. Most Dems want reform and don't seem to care much about what it looks like (or costs). Most Reps are against the Dem reforms, also not caring much about what those reforms are. Both stand on abstract principle. Both refuse to compromise their 'ideals.'

In the midst of things, though, there are much smaller numbers of both Rep and Dem flavors who have agreed to work together on these issues, trying to find a way forward. Neither side is going to be happy with the results, but in working together they are essentially agreeing that that's ok. It's ok not to be happy with it, so long as things get moving onward and upward.

Perhaps this is the distinction Boenhoeffer was getting at? Perhaps 'God hates idealistic vision' because it divides and stagnates and doesn't lead to a way forward by working with others.

[Dave S.]

Brent, that seems like a very pertinent example.

[Dave S.]

And thanks so much for this kind and encouraging comment, Evan. May good things come as a result of all this conversation!