A Bold Thought from Mark: Should We Consider Becoming Catholic?

From Dave: Perhaps you missed Mark Phifer-Housman's super-provocative comment on the "Are All Dreams (Worth Their Salt) Leadership Dreams?" post from last week.  It has enough material for many posts of its own, but I'll settle for his final bold question, along with some closing affirmations and encouragements.  I have my own detailed response to Mark's thoughts, but in order to keep at least one of you as an actual reader of this post (as Mark's thoughts plus mine would make for quite a tome), I'll let him speak for himself and I'd love to hear your responses.  I'll get my chance later.

Finally, (I hope this one doesn't get me kicked off the island) What is wrong with a Kingdom dream of reuniting with the Catholic Church someday? They apologized and agreed with the Lutherans on 'Justification by faith' less than 15 years ago, after a 480 year disagreement. All that movement towards reconciliation and Biblical fidelity has happened in the last 50 years. They are a church in radical transition with high stakes for the future of Christianity world-wide. They represent 2/3 to 3/4 of the Christians worldwide, especially in the global South. Their "brand" is far more Gospel centered and Biblical than the Charismatic brand in the Global South - one has only to watch TV in an African or Latin American country and see the mimicking of all the worst of the health and wealth movement to be sickened in your souls - every leader longs to be a TV star with his private jet, just like Benny Hinn and all the rest. It's the one thing that makes me doubt that God exists. If it weren't for Paul and Peter's warnings that it would happen, I don't know what I would do.

Christianity in our lifetimes (assuming we are 30's and 40's) will be led and dominated by leaders from the global South, Kingdom leaders and cult leaders. Of the Kingdom leaders, priests, nuns, independent evangelists, Dalits in India, Anglicans in Africa - these leaders are the true apostles. They have suffered the persecutions and martyrdoms and hardships of our Lord and his apostles, not Brian McLaren, John Wimber, Rob Bell, Hillsong United (you fill in the blank with the hottest young leaders in the U.S. or British world). Frankly, more of the cult leaders are Protestants, precisely because they start their own movements and are accountable to no historic Institution or governing body anchored to the Scriptures' true witness that the Christian life, especially for the leaders, is an ongoing cycle of death and resurrection, of increasing weakness and frailty in ourselves and confidence and power in the Spirit's work apart from our talents, but through our weaknesses. Can one dream about 2 Cor. 12:9f? I don't think it's dream material. Thank God he doesn't show us in detailed dreams our Crosses before they come upon us.

For now, I am learning with the Catholics, journeying alongside their charismatic renewal stream. I think we have a lot to learn from them, and not just from the early Jesuits, but living Catholics and non-Western Anglicans and even some Orthodox in some places like Ethiopia. (But, the Orthodox churches of Russia and Greece are the counter-example to the Roman Catholics. They are corrupt, in bed with the State, and increasingly irrelevant in the global advance of the Gospel. May the Lord prove analysts wrong, since they too have precious gifts to contribute to the Body in the future.)

I do dream that our church would be a church and sodality planting dynamo. I dream of being linked together in a network with the Boston Vineyard and other churches with similar DNA and theology. I dream of 100,000's of secularized university educated urbanites coming into relationship with our Lord and fresh wineskins streaming out of the West/North in Partnership with the Global South churches. I dream of churches led in all the secularized cities of America and Europe with leadership shared between us Westerners and leaders of the church in the Majority world. "Establish the work of our hands!" (Psalm 90)

So, I do believe any Kingdom dream worth its salt is a leadership dream. We may need to be tested at the same level as Joseph who was so enamored of himself as the ruler in his dream, not the purpose of that rulership. But, by the time God gave him the rulership, his character was prepared to lead/rule for God's glory and to serve, even his murderous brothers and their offspring.

I really wish I was back at your culture summit. May the Lord free my entire church staff up for next year's.

Comments

[randal chase]

hey, mark. randy here. we live in the same city (*practically), never see one another, and yet we meet on dave's blog...based in cambridge. funny!

well, my knee-jerk reply to your question about whether or not we should all become catholics is this: if you think the evangelical church is corrupt (*anywhere in the world), you ain't seen nothin' until you look at the roman catholic church, past and present. ask dave how the building their church meets in became available, for example.

having said that, i think there are things to learn from every stream of christianity, including catholicism. but i am not blind to their glaring faults either. you mentioned some of their theological changes (*probably after vatican II). while i am no expert, some of what i read of the documents written back in the mid 60's was encouraging while other things were pretty troubling. i don't think we're going to find much difference from any organization - christian or secular, any country on the face of the planet, unfortunately - that doesn't become corrupt when people start feeling they have something to protect and will do whatever is necessary to not lose it.

[Christophe]

hi Mark,

The Church is 2000 years old - but Jesus is preparing his bride for the big day. No wrinkles for this beauty.

I will pass on doctrines (weird, then corrected with some weirdness left) and abuses (with 'recent' press) in the Catholic church.

If there is a thing that we have learned in the past few decades, it's probably that a decentralized force is more adaptative and usually more efficient to serve/fulfill its dream/purpose than a centralized/hierarchical institution.

I could add that the reason the Catholic church has so many quirks is because of its rather rigid structure.

But, in the end, Jesus builds his church and if you think He invites you to serve in a Catholic environment, I think everyone here is ready to bless you. (but please don't go believe that severing the ties with the Catholic church will send you to Hell, and many other wacko things they don't really believe anymore but still practice).

[Vinceation]

fascinating, Mark... I think historical context is one of my love languages... I'm going to chew on this

[DJ Sybear]

The idea of certain denominations, churches/parishes, congregations, or individuals reuniting with the Catholic Church is not a foreign idea in my mind. It strikes me as inevitable. The future unity of a catholic church, the gathered saints in the age to come seems rather obvious.

Thus the question for me, and particularly for existing churches, is when and how?

Regarding churches, it seems more likely that those operating with a centered set approach would find themselves contemplating association or merger. However, most churches maintain bounded set cultural practices, no matter how mature or well-meaning they might be, and it strikes me those things would be hurdles. Nonetheless, any type of fruitful association between churches is worth pursuing.

Personally, my continued distance from the Ctaholic Church arises from a difference of missiology. I don't think it's likely that I'd be able to make much of an impact for the Kingdom under Catholic terms.

[Abby]

I'm a frequent reader of this blog, but rarely comment because I often don't think all too deeply about theology and the great meaty discussions had here often feel a bit over my head...but for whatever reason I feel inclined (though under prepared) to respond today. :)
Within the last few years I read the book Rome Sweet Home by Scott and Kimberly Hahn. It's an interesting and compelling book about "hard core" protestants rejoining the Catholic church based on theological research they have done. Based on my above disclaimer, this didn't get me all too fired up about personally wanting to join the Catholic church. BUT, I do find certain aspects quite fascinating, and possibly a bit more true to letting God speak for Himself, rather than having us want to dress Him up to fit into what we want at certain times in our life. For example the idea that every Catholic church on a particular Sunday is reading from the same gospel. Or that the music for the most part is the same from church to church. I like that it doesn't feel like there is a "competition" between parishes for wanting you to be their member, but rather it is more based on location as to which church you attend.

[Mike]

Returning to the Catholic Church does not equal returning to the Roman Catholic Church. Big difference. I think the difference in the two are perhaps the reason Christ following Churches are the better choice.

[Account Deleted]

Mark,
I love what you've written here, and you've said many intelligent things. I grew up "partly Catholic" (long story) and I have a great love for the Catholic Church and the mass and the entire tradition.
I would say this, though: We had a discussion awhile back on the blog on "idealism" (http://notreligious.typepad.com/notreligious/2009/07/are-you-an-idealist-.html still not sure exactly what "idealism" is, but let's let that go for the moment!). Using my own at-the-moment definition, it seems to me that the dream of the unity of the church could be something like the very best kind of idealism--like, Jesus' idealism when he prays that his followers be "one" (whatever that means).
However, another part of me thinks what you've said is also the kind of disappointing and hopeless idealism that can be hurtful, since a) ain't no way the world's 1 billion non-catholics are going catholic--there is simply no turning back from the fragmentation (denominationally) that we currently see, which means b) the wish could be (perhaps not for you, dear Mark) a denial of what we have, in a sense, what God has given us in terms of churches. If reality is the friend of God, then we have to find a way to be friends with the reality of where we are, who we are, as a world xtn movement.

But at a core, I feel deeply in agreement with what you're saying above--and the rebellious angry part of me was pumping my fist when thinking of poverty we sometimes seem to have for leaders in charismatic circles and Protestantism generally.

[Ryan NYC]

Abby,

Please refer to any of my posts for good examples of "over my head" and "under prepared".

Your post was great! Please keep 'em comin'!

[Christina]

This may be a bit off topic, but I grew up Greek Orthodox and was struck by your comment of GO churches being corrupt.

I am actually surprised at some of the younger priests who are entering ministry. A few years ago I met the new priest in my home town. He attended a Vineyard church in college and then went on to become a GO priest, which I thought was interesting.

My uncle also has talked to me about their young priest and what new life he has brought to their church. My uncle is more engaged in church now than ever before.

I have found myself lately reflecting on my GO upbringing and how they do church and there is a lot to learn from this part of the universal church. I do think that there needs to be more adaptation and innovation within the GO church, but I wouldn't write them off so soon.

[Alagon]

No we should not. I understand that UNIT is a totally different concept of UNIFORMITY. My idea of what it means to be a follower of Jesus and what it means to be church in this generation can be totally different from an orthodox point of view, let's say a Roman Catholic one for example.
It does not mean, we are not part at same universal church. Everybody that believes that Jesus became flesh, dwelled among us, died for our sins, rose from the dead at third day, and will come back once again is my brother and my sister. This is regardless if we disagree with details, the way church should be lead for example.
I understand that the way we as church are " splitted " serves the God's purpose to display His multiform Grace to people and our affiliation is not as important as our captivated hearts and transformed conscious according to the light that has be given to each one of us.
Alagon

[Dan L]

Back when I was at BC, I took several classes with the former Calvinist, now Catholic philosophy professor Peter Kreeft. He had many things to say about Protestants and Catholics, and this one stayed with me:

He stated that Catholics are like a fireplace without a fire and Protestants are like a fire without a fireplace. He writes:

"It isn’t that fundamentalists explicitly deny this Catholic vision of the Church; they just don’t comprehend it. They may have things to teach us about being on fire with religious zeal, but we have much to teach them about the fireplace.

A fireplace without a fire is cold and gloomy. But a fire without a fireplace is catastrophic."

There is clearly good and ill on both sides and I try the best I can to chew the meat and spit out the bones. I hope someday together we can become a fireplace with a fire in it.

[Prashant]

I very much resonate with Mark, and love the Peter Kreeft quote from Dan L. It is a succinct expression of my feelings towards both streams. I was raised Catholic & ultimately left because the local expression I was exposed to didn't appear to have a fire. Cold & gloomy it was.

I also spent close to a decade in Dave's church & loved the fire, but increasingly longed for more historical continuity, more shared experience with a larger body of believers, and more of a sense of where we come from in the family of faith in Jesus.

Without this perspective, I feel that it is hard, to build anything lasting in the kingdom - like a wildfire that flares up, but quickly burns out, and leaves charred remains. These are strong words but I also think that there hasn't been a Protestant strain/denomination/movement that has stood the test of time without moving back towards Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Maybe the church history folks will educate me otherwise.

Where does that leave me? Choosing between trying to find and cultivate a connection with our historical faith in a vibrant place, or bringing vibrancy to a place alive in history. Both are lofty ideals but I suspect that Mark would say the latter is a better dream, and I'm more & more inclined to agree.

I haven't taken the plunge & returned to Catholicism yet. But if I encountered a congregation which was alive in the Spirit (where there was at least a small fire in the fireplace), I'd be almost certain to.

[Alagon]

I am sorry if I am being harsh, but your comments sounds like someone would be evaluating a grocery store or something like that with a list of advantages of one place in contrast with another that pleases or displeases you. That's not the issue here, not the reflection proposed by Mark. This mistake usually happens when people look at Church as an institution and not as an Entity.
Alagon

[Prashant]

On the contrary Alagon - it is precisely because I want more of the Entity that I like Mark's comments. I am actually little concerned with the institutional strengths & weaknesses, or things like "how church should be lead" as you put it.

An Entity is not helpful as an abstraction alone. Entities have expression, which takes different forms, and those forms, those expressions matter greatly. I find your notion that we are "part of the same universal church" unhelpful, even if true.

I certainly have no desire to impugn the faith of any follower of Jesus (or indeed anyone of any faith really), but the expression of that faith matters. If we are, collectively, the church, then what the church looks like & behaves like matters greatly.

[steven hamilton]

great stuff...i'm assuming you mean roman catholic church ( as i hope most christians believe in the universal/catholic church), i have reservations about this even as i have read about john henry newman and his return to the roman catholic church (which seems along the lines you are talking)...as a missional-type, it makes me wonder if creatively and artistically we lose out of some richness in the practice of a religion like christianity in an indigenous way rather than having certain things imposed by a European...also i think even Benny Hinn has his stuff turned toward the good, i hear the present King of Jordan used to watch his show on satellite TV and has struck up a personal relationship with Benny...i'm not advocating his style and extravagance, i'm just saying...

[Alagon]

Dear Prashant.
We are supposed to sit at the same table and put our differences aside. On Jesus table there are place to the Zelot and to the Publican. To the liberation theology, and charismatic movements, everything on its place, circunstance, and purpose.
If Church is an Entity as you claim to believe, and Jesus is The Head, why ""part of the same universal church" unhelpful, even if true."? This is the very basic part of what it means to be a Christian, put our differences aside and celebrate the same faith. That's regardless of who is right in some aspects and who is not right or even who is ignorant in some other aspects.
I am really sorry if I misunderstood what you wrote, but we are use to see a church with the assumptions that our emotional, physical, and even spiritual should be delivered by one, when actually to live in communuty of believers in so many ways means to learn to live with our poverty.
Alagon

[Prashant]

Hello again, Alagon.

Here's what I see you saying - that there is a universal Church of followers of Jesus, populated by multiple theologies, denominations et al. There is a multiplicity of churches that make up this Church.
Hopefully that is a fair synopsis.

Here's why I think the truth of that isn't ultimately helpful - the only way to know the Church is in the way it is expressed by the church. The Church is an ideal, but we can't see it in action, know its fruit. Yes, we can
belong to it, but as human beings we can only intuit and experience and feel our belonging through the expressed church. Which leads me to think that the expression of church is vitally important. And, to resonate with Mark's
[b]ideal[/b] of re-joining with the historical church. And to like Peter Kreeft's comment, because it speaks to the heart of two large traditions of church. When you have anything made up of people, even people animated by
the Spirit of God, then the structures and the history and the expressions are important.

By the way, I am not disparaging the notion that we "put our differences aside and celebrate the same faith. That's regardless of who is right in some aspects and who is not right" - there I completely agree with you,
particularly because we don't even know all the ways in which each of us are right & wrong.

[Prashant]

Hmm. I used Typepad's "reply via email" feature for the first time on my last post & it appears that the formatting is very poor. Sorry about that.

[DJ Sybear]

Dare I say it, if hanging out with Benny Hinn helps the King of Jordan to relate to the global community, then God bless Benny Hinn.

(Did I just pray that? Amazing what centered-set perspectives will do to your prayers.)

[Pete Ascosi]

I'm a Catholic brother who's read your book and really appreciated a lot of it.

I grew up in an ecumenical, charismatic, Catholic community of sorts in the Baltimore area - now I work full-time in a not-your-average Catholic ministry that promotes evangelization and renewal - ChristLife.

So get this:

Two protestant friends were influential in helping me reawaken to faith in Jesus several years ago. This radically changed my entire life. I continued to be a practicing Catholic.

Now both these friends have become Catholic - because they were in an environment of young adult Catholics who were passionate followers of the Lamb and also fully Catholic.

One friend, a worship leader, lamented every mass with bad music. But now instead of pointing the finger, he is helping Catholics discover good worship music.

The Lord Jesus is calling us all to unity (of the spirit and the faith). Ephesians 4. To the full stature of the manhood of Christ.

I think many that read this will continue to work out this unity as non-Catholics - a prophetic reminder to the Catholic Church of things we've forgotten - and others will be called to or back to the Church to share the gifts you've received for the upbuilding of the body.

We have a long road ahead of us as far as unity goes. But He is accomplishing it between Protestants and Catholics in amazing ways that would have been unthinkable 40, 50, 100 years back - and I've been blessed to see it first-hand.

A final resource, is the encyclical letter John Paul II wrote in 1995 on Christian unity. Worth a prayerful read:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25051995_ut-unum-sint_en.html

Sometimes I tell others the only reason I'm Catholic is because of the Pope (the "Petrine" ministry) - if you've read much of John Paul II and Benedict XVI, you realize they were/are far ahead of much of "popular lukewarm catholic culture" and are truly Christian radicals.