Let's Talk Richard Rohr!

Forgive my lateness in getting to the promised Richard Rohr book (or, in this case, CD) club!  Weekends (and life) being what they are, getting to this hasn’t been possible until now.  But, in the spirit (that I rely upon in so many areas of my life) of “better late than never,” here we go!

So, of course, what I’ll be asking at the end of those of you who listened to Rohr’s talks about Men and Women: The Journey of Spiritual Transformation is, “What struck you?  What was helpful?  Was there anything problematic?  Do you imagine you’ll change anything as a result of listening to Rohr’s talks?”  But let me take an initial shot at my own responses to those questions.

I heard these talks perhaps a decade ago and have listened to them many times since.  They prodded me to delve a bit deeper into Rohr’s teaching and I’ve since heard maybe three much longer sets (each with maybe ten 80 minute lectures) and have read, if I’m remembering, four of his books.  So clearly something struck me!

After that much reading and listening, it will be no surprise that I feel as though I’ve benefited from his immense strengths and, perhaps, have bumped into one or two of his limitations.  I—as mellow a theologian as one would find, at least in my circle of friends—have found that Rohr can push my own sense of orthodoxy a bit farther than I prefer.  For a contemplative, I don’t hear a ton from Rohr about hearing from God or even, in some ways, knowing God.  After awhile with Rohr, I can feel like everything he says or writes is interesting, but abstract, as if Rohr’s silver tongue has covered over the hollowness of some of those fascinating ideas.  He reminds me in some ways of Thomas Merton, whom some of you may have read, in that Merton often seems—as is generally acknowledged—to be a genius…and yet what does one actually do with anything he says?

So there are some of Rohr’s weaknesses.  But we come not to bury Rohr, but to praise him, at least from this quarter. 

In these lectures, Rohr—to my mind—captures some deep longings of men and women I’ve known, and gives some really helpful perspective.  His take on male initiation has gotten a lot of traction among some of my friends.  The idea that every boy wants to be a hero has been just central to my thinking about discipleship in Jesus ever since I heard this.  The importance of ascent and descent, of course, is the crux of his point here, and that has made a major impact on me.  So much of my life has been geared towards ascent—along with that of most everyone I know—and to hear him not devalue that, while at the same time putting it in context and offering such profound warnings about the risk of becoming “an old fool” (as opposed to “a holy fool”).  All this has really shaped me and focused me back on Paul’s comment that he knows how to have lots and how to have very little.

Carol Wimber, the widow of John Wimber who spearheaded my movement of churches, writes about how, at the end of his life, Wimber would get fewer and fewer invitations, and would often show up to groups of perhaps fifteen young people, where once he’d spoken to thousands.  She’d feel the waste of this—do these people know who this man is?  But he’d be perfectly cheerful and eager to go, saying to Carol, “I’m so pleased to talk with anyone who wants to consider how to know and follow Jesus better.”  This strikes me as a very appealing picture of Rohr’s “descent.”

His take on the importance of ascent for many women has also really resonated with me, as I’ve experienced some women, somewhat past their youth, choose to step out and take their place at the table.

Rohr says that this and his other epic teaching on this spiritual direction tool, the Enneagram (above), are not intended for anyone under 30, that they won’t know enough about themselves to employ his insights.  I was introduced to them when I was perhaps 35, so maybe I got to them just in time, but they seem invaluable to me now.  “If you don’t transform your pain, you will always transmit your pain” seems like deep—and perhaps obvious—wisdom that nonetheless was rarely stated as clearly, in my experience, before Rohr got there.

For those of you familiar with our “stage 4” rhetoric (see more under the multimedia section tab, if you’re interested), I occasionally talk with Rohr-loving friends about whether Rohr would be, under this thinking, stage 4.  On the one hand, he seems like the dictionary picture of stage 4.  If not him, who?

And yet, maybe quirkily, I still seem to see him as top of the line stage 3—with several toes firmly in stage 4’s water.  And that’s that, for all my appreciation for and love of what he brings to the table, he doesn’t seem so much a “mystic” in this sense of knowing, loving, and talking often with Jesus as he does the single most brilliant critic of institutional Catholicism alive.  But that’s just me.

So…what did you take away from these talks?

Comments

[searching100]

I'm a RR fan. Listened several times to the CD's and read the Enneagram. Lots of wisdom there, but not a lot on the practical application side. It seems much of this simply has to be lived. The knowledge has not been that empowering. It deepens my compassion. Yet this kind of understanding is almost painful to possess, producing to some level a sense of helplessly watching the process unfold. Especially as a single mom raising two teenage sons.

[www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=710832717]

I haven't gotten the "full dose" from the CDs but I heard Dave talk about this concept 5+ years ago and it has stuck with me. That is a compliment to any concept.

I think I have found it helpful on the macro scale (answering the question why does my life look like this, why does his life look like that) but not something I cling to day by day, like the last poster said -- although she used different words I think that is what she may be meaning when she says it's not practical information. I must cling to God instead ... but that's the whole point of life I think, so I guess that doesn't come as a surprise.

I'm curious to see what others have to say in this discussion, especially those who have listened to the whole CD set.

[Paul]

I LOVED this!! I'd only read a little of Rohr previously (I read parts of Simplicity: The Art of Living...and loved that too). Perhaps as a neophyte to his work I'm overly enamored with his observations of the life journey, but I found it helpful...and timely for my own journey.

The thing I really like about Rohr is how he gives me language for the life experience. I found his description of the spiritual journey...and the hope for it...personally familiar. My take away is not the hope (with a plan) that I can be a 'Holy Fool,' but that in fact the trajectory of my own life aligns so eerily with Rohr's diagram ( http://catalog.americancatholic.org/Guide/pdf/LR_A6940_&_A6950.pdf ).

I've been walking out risk filled adventure following as best I can where I sense Jesus leading me. Its been a crazy journey of descent (partly inspired by life tragedy and partly through contemplative lifestyle - as Rohr suggests the only alternatives to spiritual growth). If I were to project forward based on the trajectory of my recent past than its all down hill from here...until, what? I hit bottom, or someplace balmy and sulfurous?

But I don't feel that's where it will end...and I take comfort (that might be too strong a word...maybe just take note) that Rohr seems to agree. So my life is different than it was a few years ago...and I'm aware of my own limitations. I see the life choices that Rohr lays out as my own personal choices and I've chosen to descend...not based on a plan (Rohr's or otherwise), but only because that's where I sense Jesus leading. And I'm only doing that because Jesus has shown me that I could trust Him in the past. I'm finding joy on the journey...it just looks different than it used to.

[Paul]

oh, and of course there's lots more to consider that I hope is tweaked out in coming days. I especially liked Rohr's notion of the uniqueness in history of the modern woman's journey. Looking forward to more!!

btw - meant to say in my comment above '...alternatives FOR the spiritual journey.'

[steven hamilton]

having heard many of rohr's teachings before, i had not stumbled across this one.

i really, really liked it. he is just so good and affable and insightful.

i have found for a few years that more and more my spirituality is one of letting go, or at least holding lightly...what struck me, as a man in his 40s, was of course, the confrontation with the cross, a deeper embrace of the cross. i totally associate - as a young man - with turning the cross into another journey of heroic ascent, and not descent. i was recently with another great-but-distant mentor of mine, who was pondering brokenness. he told me there were three kinds of brokenness from his perspective: congenital brokenness (The Fall of man/original sin), communal brokenness (we are wounded and we go about wounding each other throughout life), and then sacramental brokenness, in which our wounds become sacred and a source for healing others...the whole "wounded healer" image that nouwen gave us.

the whole perpetual adolescence rings so true as well...i know so many who have given in to the temptation of a second adolescence in the second half of life, rather than embarcing the myserty of transformation and the way of descent.

i just pray that i can embrace my confrontation with the cross...because one thing i absolutely lacked as a youth and young man was initiation. i've stumbled my way through manhood, lurching from pride to humility...and i still need help to move towards integration and exposing the darkness that populates my heart to Jesus' embrace and light...

[steven hamilton]

and i think you are spot-on in terms of rohr being top-of-the-line stage 3, maybe dangling his legs into the deep waters of stage 4. that's probably why i like him so much!

[Ty Denney]

I am new to Rohr's teachings and I really enjoyed it. Although I connected quite a bit with both his male and female journeys. That made feel insecure! There were bunches of thoughts that really hit me. Specifically, the progression of initiation, "growing up" boys, the introduction of mysteries, and the ever present temptation to abuse power. I grew up in a female led household, with a faint religious background, and chose to play sports my whole growing up years. Initiation was standing naked in the locker room, growing up and being a man always had to do with athletic performance, there was no room for mysteries because that seemed weak and emotional, and no one questioned the abuse of power. Everything seemed to be clicking along wonderfully until I had a powerful spiritual encounter with Jesus. As a freshman in college everything turned upside down and I all the sudden found out I had pain-filled emotions. Lots of them! Knowing how to navigate pain has become a real reality for me and I super connected with Rohr's idea that pain either transforms you into a deeper, more spiritual being or you transmit it towards everyone that is close to you. This seems to be my territory now as a man in his mid thirties. That being said, Rohr put categories and language to some missing elements that have been helpful this last month. It makes me want to introduce my children to mysteries. I suppose I need to learn to embrace them better myself first.

[Ty Denney]

After listening to Rohr's teaching I would enjoy hearing more of his thoughts on gender/sexual identity.

[R. Jason Smith]

Dave,

I'm pretty into Rohr. I recently saw him live. He is working out, publicly and supposedly in writing, a Contemplative Christianity piece. A Note on that: Rohr dictates his books, so his writing is exactly like his speaking. It's kinda weird actually. Mostly he seems focused on the path of descent and how it leads one into a non-dual reality. A non either/or reality. An embrace of mystery, suffering, and joy amidst it all. (Practical, it is not.)

I have been chewing on your comments here for a few days. I don't know much about John Wimber as a person, but I would say, having studied Rohr and stage theory a little, that John had been on the path of descent and come through the "wall" at some level if he was able to hang out with small groups of people at the end of his life. Wimber had every (worldly) reason to feed on his ego and refuse to speak to less than 1000 people at a time.

I have heard mixed things about Wimber's leadership style and his ego, but if he was able to humbly engage those kinds of audiences at that phase or stage of his life, he had experienced the path of descent on some significant levels.

Just a thought I was having.

On the practicality of Rohr, I think the issue for Evangelicals or however we define ourselves. American Protestants? Maybe. Contemplative life is in complete contrast to our way of life. Rohr speaks from an assumption - his listener is at least a novice in Contemplative Living. He doesn't attempt to help you get there. He assumes you are living a contemplative life.

I think this is why the experiential side of Charismatic leaning folks is so important. Many have left the faith of their past for an experiential version of the faith. In Catholic circles, that is contemplative mysticism. It is a true ancient/future reality. Rohr speaks of the ancient mystics with a gleam in his eye. He is one of them.
If you are not, he is very difficult to get!

His approach does not fit into categories of quiet time, devotional reading, etc.

In person he says, most if not all, people have to spend time in the "fundamentalist" stage. It is necessary to build that foundation. He claims to be bent in this direction. If you read Enneagram and other stuff, his bent is to be legalistic and rule oriented. (I don't know how you can live the cloistered life without having that in you?)

would recommend his book "Everything Belongs" to those getting started. It doesn't have any exercises in it or anything, but it sheds light on the transition from fundamentalist to contemplative. Keating has an intro to the Contemplative Life. Also, check out The Spiritual Disciplines Handbook by Adele Calhoun. (The best book of its kind!) It is filled with exercises!!! The practice of "detachment" exercises can get someone on the right track. These include The Prayer of Examen, Discernment, etc.

[Paul Mandell]

As someone who has read lots of Rohr, heard hm almost a dozen times and as an "initiated man" ( see Rohr's work of past 18 years out of New Mexico and in past few years throughout this country and others, with about 200 or so such men now here in Minnesota), I was thrilled two years ago when Dave, at a regional conference here in Minnesota, spent his first day with M. Scott Peck and then on the second, launched into some Rorh stuff, and now this.
Dave is an enlightened Vineyard leader I've only been able to enjoy thru this blog since I met him in Burnsville, and R. Jason Smith clearly has really grasped the essence of Rohr, so I definitely won't try to expand on either. Heading off to retreat with the men from my local River Hieghts Vineyard, and maybe will hope the discussion continues on, but after listening to the Rohr CD (first time I'd ever heard this work), I was brought back to the book "Men are from mars, Women are from Venus" as something very helpful in understandig why the two sexes operate on such different paths. For those who are married, if you've ever gone "shopping" with your spouse, you know how different it can be .... where, speaking for myself, I had a clear mental list of what I needed and I was out for conquest.
Rohr's work on the male need for descent rings so true, especially for someone who is in his 50's and has lived thru not just the decade of the '60's but then the current decade too, as someone who, probably because of my feminie side or because I might be a "2" on the Enneagram, have always related more easily to women than men (something my work through Rorr's work is helping me change).
At any rate, I hope this line of discussion will continue on through the weekend at least, allowing for more commentary; if not, my thanks to Dave for his initaiton of this and his other good work.

[Mike Morrell]

Howdy Dave. This is, like, years later, and I'm not sure if you (or an administrator) gets emails with new comments. I wanted to say: Great observation that Richard tends not to focus on what we might call the devotional, or dialogical, or I-Thou nature of the divine-human relationship. AND, related to this, I'm wondering if you've heard the relatively-recent series he did with Cynthia Bourgeault on the Trinity: http://bit.ly/oeBsOs In it, he & Cynthia (also an amazing teacher, btw - check out her Centering Prayer and Inner Awakening if you haven't already) unpack God-as-community, God-as-relationality, and how we enter into this flow. It's still not Wimber (or Mark Virkler for that matter), though seeing as Rohr got his start with the New Jerusalem Community in the 1970s during the Catholic Charismatic movement, there must be a story as to why he backed off this rather obvious emphasis of 'intimacy with God' for a few decades. Now, though, it would seem it's back. See also Ken Wilber's 1-2-3 of God teaching. Wilber's not a Christian, but has immense respect for Rohr, Bourgeault, and Thomas Keating, and laments the lack of I-Thou devotional relating to God in metaphysical and new age circles.

We live in interesting times - and the times we live in call for the inner resources and manifold ways of relating to God that the family of faith is discovering and re-discovering. Continued blessing in your blogging!

[Dave Schmelzer]

Hi Mike,

It's fun to hear from you--and in such an unexpected place as a 2-year-old post! Thanks for the update on Rohr. I haven't been current with him since The Naked Now, and I'll keep an eye out for the resources you mention.

All blessings to you!

[Caleb Williams]

I was interested in your comment about Rohr challenging your orthodoxy. That's only one of his great strengths. His mysticism is another. He talks about mystery and opening one's self to it. He talks about the path to God being something that is not heavily informed by dogma, this path involves finding love in surrender to a greater purpose that is often 'mysterious'. True faith and spiritual growth comes with humility and by letting 'go', going deeper into an experience which involves leaving ideas behind.

[Mayerfmt]

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/abbott/060123