How do we relate to Muslims?/ Brent Hendersen

If you are paying attention at all these days, you’ve heard about the controversy surrounding the decision to build an Islamic center a few blocks away from ground zero in lower Manhattan. Conservative talking heads are condemning it, New York’s mayor and the President are supporting it, and everybody is politicizing it. More disturbing though, is that since this debate has gone national, it has in some sense made it ok to be anti-Islamic, and similar arguments are popping up all over. For instance, some residents in Murfreesboro, TN are trying to stop a new masjid from going up there, and in my hometown of Gainesville those crazy Dove World Outreach people are planning to hold a Koran burning on Sept 11th.

Clearly, underlying all of this is the fact that we’re becoming a more pluralistic society, not just in terms of race and nationality, but religion as well. There are literally millions of Americans and recent immigrants who are Muslim and the numbers are growing quickly. Suddenly, it seems to me, American Christians have to ask to themselves something they never really had to before: what do I think about Islam and the people who follow it? Or at least that question suddenly has real-life implications for a ton of people who might have only thought of it abstractly before. 

(Note: this video shows an example of a "Christian" reaction to the growing Muslim population and does not reflect the views of Brent or Not Religious Inc.)

I’d include myself in that group. Two years ago I started a language documentation project that I’ve talked a bit about before on this blog, and the speakers of that language happen to be fairly conservative Sunni Muslims. This past year I’ve been realizing that so much of their culture can only be understood by gaining a deeper understanding of Islam. So, I’ve been reading, and also talking with Muslims (in particular I have several grad students from various Middle Eastern countries). I’ve also attended sermons and worshipped at mosques. Though I’ve only scratched the surface of 1500 years of religious history, I’ve learned a ton and I’ll admit it’s really got me thinking about some pretty essential questions, including the question of whether Muslims, as we’ve traditionally assumed, really need to be evangelized by us Christians. Islam has its foundational roots in early Middle Eastern Christianity and Judaism, after all,  and anyone who really studies the Koran will find it pretty hard to dismiss it as some great big trick pulled by the Prophet. Many parts of it, at least, taste to me as much like real revelation as the Bible does. The experience has at least led me much closer to calling Muslims my spiritual brothers and sisters than I think I would have been even three or four years ago.

But I wonder what you think. Do you have real relationships with Muslims in your community? Have you learned much about Islam? Do you want to? Does it matter what we think about Islam? Is there a ‘stage 4’ way to approach other religions and those who follow them?

Comments

[Dave Schmelzer]

I'll be interested in folks' thoughts. I especially wonder if any of the folks in my own community who work with Grace on such questions--some of whom live in the Arab-Muslim world--have thoughts.

[Vinceation]

Some of the snippets I've heard on NPR of some American responses have made me so sad. There is such great fear and misunderstanding.

[Rich]

Vinceation , please share.
I would like to see your observations as heard from NPR, as this is a extremely provocative topic.
R

[Jeff]

My interactions with Muslims have primarily been with Somali immigrants here in Minneapolis. I've spent some time reading books (mostly given me by Somalis) and time just conversing with people.

To be honest, I found the books more compelling than the conversations. The vision of Islam laid out in several books was certainly attractive and helpful. But in many of the conversations, I found faith to be more about fear and anger.

That said- the people I'm talking to are in a place of massive national trauma, so it's certainly not a fair sample. But I would say that in the long run, the Somalis I know could probably be helped by being pointed towards Jesus for healing, forgiveness, and acceptance. I fully realize, however, that if I were to encounter Islams in a different context, the feeling could be different.

On a more hypothetical level, even my most "stage 4" self still says Jesus is the center and people who aren't moving towards him are missing out. Though it could be quite possible to be moving towards him without acknowledging Christianity.

[Jane]

Back in the 80s, before my midlife conversion, I dated a Turk and I read the entire Koran so I could better understand his culture. There are things in the Koran about forcing conversions and killing unbelievers that are troubling. There is nothing like that in the New Testament, and even God's instructions to conquer the Promised Land are about the land, not forced conversion.

I read the Koran a long time ago, and I'd like to go back to it. I have met many peaceable Muslims, and I support the mosque in New York. (My brother-in-law -- they live on the Upper West Side -- says that two blocks is a long way in New York.) For me, the distance isn't the point, freedom is.

But I'm ambivalent about Islam because of what I've read in the Koran. I think the Crusades were a misinterpretation of the Bible, but Jihad seems to be what the Koran is really commanding. But people take Bible verses out of context, so maybe someone more knowledgeable than I could comment on this?

[Jo]

For my part, I'd love to learn more! My work team is Somali, and for the most part, serious Muslims. Talking about Ramadan has been very helpful, with comments like "I feel like I am talking to God and He's hearing me". Even amongst my team there are clearly different kinds of Islam. There's some great common ground to start off conversations of faith.

That said, I also encounter ideas that are upsetting to me, and I'm not quite sure how to deal with that discomfort: I tend to end the conversation or back into platitudes. When I encounter Christians believing things about God that I find discomforting (wrong or right), it's easier for me to jump in. So far, I think that, for me, getting into interfaith conversations is a very slow journey, but I like that I'm on that journey and that there is that 10% of time when we're able to go beyond platitudes.

[Brent]

Hi, Jane. I'm by no means an expert, but I know there are certainly schools of thought in Islam that don't take the Koran to be commanding Jihad. At least part of that understanding is historical - some argue that those parts of the Koran were for a specific time and place and have to be reinterpreted in different ways today. This is not altogether different from some Christian interpretations I've heard about the Jihads and ethnic cleansings in the Old Testament (not that I necessarily agree w/ those interpretations).

I think step one is realizing that Islam is just as rich and deep with perspective as Christianity is. There are large-scale disagreements about fairly fundamental issues just as there is in Christianity. There are rich and complicated theological discussions.

The key to getting this, maybe, is having relationships and discussions with Muslims. Then we can actually get some of those perspectives without having to decide, from outside, 'what Muslims believe.' Did you happen to ask your then-boyfriend or his friends about those verses in the Koran? I wonder what their response was?

[Brent]

Awesome, Jo! I encourage you to keep having those conversations, even if they are way uncomfortable (as they are bound to be).

To be clear, there are some non-negotiables in Islam that I, as an Open Theist, Anabaptist-leaning, Evangelical Christian, am always going to have a problem with - their view of God's will (which most Muslims take to be absolute and controlling), their view of the Koran (which they take to be God's actual words), and their view of Jesus (who they do not take to be God's fullest revelation of himself).

But I guess the broader question I'm trying to get at here is, can we view Muslims as brothers and sisters seeking God's will for their lives in similar ways to ourselves? Or are they just utterly 'lost' as much as any pagan? It seems like in the Christian circles I travel it, the latter is the dominant view. Sounds like maybe some of your relationships at work are challenging that as well.

Any particular insights from the conversations that you found surprising or helpful?

[Jane]

He was not religious. He said he didn't agree with those parts so he disregarded them.

[Ryan NYC]

I actually work within a stone's throw from sight of the proposed Islamic Center (my address includes WTC as part of the location) and was actually passing by the rally as it was taking place on Sunday morning. I can only echo Vince's comment that I was sad. I didn't even listen to what the blow horn was projecting, because the sights alone were so disheartening and cruel (in my opinion).

But, to answer your question, I am only in contact with non-practicing or secular Muslims, so I don't have many occasions for meaningful talks about the Muslim faith. The largest extent of my Muslim education has come from the work of Carl Medearis and the materials that he puts out. I've found him to be extremely educational and helpful in my gaining both some understanding and an appreciation for some of the things that you've expressed, Brent. From what I've learned from Carl, I can definitely see many Muslims as brothers and sisters in my faith journey (again, I'm speaking a bit in the abstract right now).

Since this whole "mosque" thing became an issue, I've actually thought that I'd like to visit the Islamic Center if/when it gets built and meet some peeps. I for one, think there would be no better way to dispel fear and misunderstanding than to have an Islamic Center so close to the WTC, in hopes that it would sort-of force an increased interaction among the opposing parties and hopefully lead to real conversation for understanding, rather than screaming with mean-spirited visual aids. I appreciate that there are different takes on this, though.

Also, something that I find funny about all of this is that there already exists some kind of Islamic center (http://www.masjidmanhattan.com/Default.aspx) only one or two blocks away from the proposed one. I've walked by a few times, on my lunch break, and have heard the prayers being announced and have seen Muslims on their mats (sorry, don't know the technical term for the mat) praying.

[Ryan NYC]

Man! Typo in the first sentence!

"...stone's throw from THE sight..."

[Ryan NYC]

And 'site", not "sight". Rough day for me...

[Brent]

Cool, Ryan. I second Medearis as a decent place to start. Faruq Masri's 'bridges' material is also ok (though it has a stronger evangelism agenda, I think). We need more people like them who can translate Islam into Christianese. I'm currently reading Hans Kung's 'Islam' (not for the faint of heart), but am learning a lot.

Personally, i think there is great beauty in this idea of putting a mosque near the WTC (though looking at actual maps, one sees it will not be right at ground zero or anything). If things were reversed and it were a fringe group of violent Christians who had blown up buildings or something, I think I'd want a statement to be made that Jesus is really about love and peace and not violence. What better way to do that than start a church near the location committed to peace and outreach? That's my take, anyway, arguments of religious freedom aside.

[Paul]

I'm working on a project in which I've had the opportunity to become friends with Muslims from Bangladesh. As we kicked off our project we prayed together for one another and success. It was really powerful times of prayer ... including praying for physical healing.

Recently I talked with one of my friends about Ramadan and she said in her experience its been spiritually powerful. As you know Muslims are invited to pray 5 times daily and she said during Ramadan the evening prayer extends to over 3 hours. The entire community prays together through the Quran (reading the entire book aloud within the month). She says its bonding to know that everyone in the community fasted that day and comes to recite together. She said the sense of community with others and with God is very powerful.

And she said during Ramadan Muslims are invited to be even more aware of a call to serve others. I don't know the doctrinal details (clearly there are differences), but my sense after a few months of relationship is that my friends are authentically seeking relationship with a living God and stand in hope (as I do) for God to answer their personal prayers.

I trust God to lead my friends to know more of Him...just as I trust Him to lead me into deeper intimacy too. I can't wait to see as we continue in relationship how God will use each of us to reveal more intimacy with each other and with Him. We...Christians, Muslims, and Hindu...together acknowledge God as foundational to our project. The project has been interesting and surprising to me.

[Vinceation]

There was a story done on the reaction to all of this in a town in--it's escaping me... somewhere in the Southern US. The folks being interviewed spoke so assuredly that Muslims are obviously a threat to them and to the nation because "we're Christians, here." The worries they expressed were all those classics I've heard Carl Medearis outline as the common misconceptions of Muslims by Americans. The fact that those worries sounded so tired to me is what made me so sad: They spoke from no actual experience of Muslims or Muslim culture, just from the info they've been fed from one niche media source. And in a world where every niche (including the conservative Christian) has its own "all-the-news-of-the-day" outlet, they also have come to believe that they are objectively right.
One woman who was interviewed in the story did share that, though she feels very skeptical of Muslims, her reaction had been to visit a nearby mosque in hopes to increase her understanding. I recall her sharing that she was still skeptical afterward, but I felt that I could take her skepticism seriously.

To rant a bit about a bigger picture, it is a sad development of our age of technology and access to information that one can be not only personally convinced but popularly confirmed within culture (or sub-culture) of his/her knowledge on a topic having no ACTUAL experience concerning that topic.

[Rich]

I think it would be very interesting(and perhaps eye opening) to have an Islamic scholar comment upon those facets of Islam that we believers often call into question when we get into these debates.
The "Don't make friends with Christians" kind of statements.

Anyone know one?

Because I think based on the little Koran I've read, that either there's a huge contextual component, and a lot of what we hear as current theology isn't relevant anymore, or else the conservative talk shows have it right.

I do not dismiss the human-ness, and even beauty of a faith stream: but I also will quickly draw a neccesary distinction between Christianity and something that isn't, as I believe the disciples were taught to do as well.

[Rich]

ps. (there's always a ps. cause I just cannot gather my thoughts cohesively...)

I would not hesitate to befriend anyone.

[Rich]

wow, in reading through the Stage theory (again), I reached the conclusion that I'm Stage 6.
That's 2 + 4
Stage 2 because if rules & boundaries were good enough for the epistles to the churches , they're good for me too.
Stage 4 because well, who knows how this all REALLY works huh?

[Paul]

I think I know what you mean, Rich. I wondered if I should've included more details in my comment to ensure there was no confusion about my motives for 'Christians,' heh! Know what I mean...that I was aligned with guidance offered by the apostles for 'following Jesus'...not compromising my 'faith,' etc. I have to run, but just saying that it was on my mind as I wrote my comment.

[Chip Decker]

Hey no fair adding up stages like that! In that case, I'm a stage 10, ha. That's 1 + 2 + 3 + 4.

Hopefully the criminal parts of me(1) are staying locked up, the young parts of me(2) are getting the appropriate boundaries they need to safely and healthily grow, the rebellious parts in me(3) are coming to peace with mystery and being subdued by the love of the Father, and somehow my awareness of all this makes me stage 4?

Love you guys!

[Brent]

Hi, Rich. I think some of those Christian authors mentioned above (Medearis, etc.) do a fairly good job of addressing some of those concerns. I'd recommend starting there before going to read any Islamic scholars (which has its own culture that can make it hard to access for Westerners).

But I have a thought about the 'necessary distinction' you're quick to draw. I don't think anyone here would deny the important differences between Christianity and Islam, some at a fundamental level. I myself am quick to embrace what's distinct and unique about Christianity. But I don't think that is the kind of 'line drawing' that centered-set thinking is wary of (correct me if I'm wrong, other people). Instead, it is wary of the kind of line drawing that would divide groups of people into the 'in' group and the 'out' group, whatever that might mean.

Unfortunately, that's usually what I hear when I hear Islam discussed in Christian circles. Muslims are talked about as if they are all as 'lost' as any pagan or atheist. They are completely 'outside' and we are 'inside.' What I've found in my relationships with some Muslims, though, just doesn't line up with this. Rather, I'm struck the by intentional God-seeking and strong desire to live by God's will that I've seen in their lives.

Now, like most evangelicals, I think it would be great if their arrow might point more toward Jesus (though for some, I think it already does), and I definitely think there are benefits to knowing about Jesus and studying the New Testament, but lost? I can't go there anymore. (which isn't, btw, to say all Muslims are the same in this - there are truly lost Muslims as much as there are truly lost people who call themselves Christians, I'm sure).
Peace!

[PB]

Just so we're clear, I am Stage 5. Stage 5 is what happens after you transcend Stage 4. Stage 4 = mystical. Stage 5 = sexy awesome. Also, you have to play bass.

[Vinceation]

ha! amazing Peter. This comment alone proves the merit of your claim.

[Chip Decker]

Poor Dave sneaks into a coffee shop on vacation to read these posts, comes across these comments, slaps his hand to his forehead and wonders aloud "Why did I ever start this blog?" :) Fun stuff!

p.s. I can't be help thinking of I Love You Man here - Slapping the baaasssss!!!

[PB]

Yeah and on a tiny phone, too. What we need to do is say things with a lot more words than necessary, and have Dan blow up the font to 6-7x larger than it needs to be. Go Dan, go!

[Rich]

boy..this conversation opens up so many questions for me...

ooyyy

[Paperless Direct Debits]

Great project you have covered up specially on the Islamic issue.